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Post Info TOPIC: LIA now is totaly pointless


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LIA now is totaly pointless


 


There isnt  a general, or other part of the end LIA forum so im sticking this here (could wappy post this in myspace)


from http://pages.prodigy.net/evlewis51/_wsn/page7.html


Old Testament
Leviticus 18:22

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. ASV


Correct Hebrew translation: "and with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination".


It can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed.


Leviticus 20:13

13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. KJV


Correct Hebrew translation: "And a man who will lie down with a male in beds of a woman, both of them have made an abomination; dying they will die. Their blood is on them.


Again it can be seen that, rather than forbidding male homosexuality, it simply restricts where it may occur. Culturally, a woman's bed was her own. Other than the woman herself, only her husband was permitted in her bed, and there were even restrictions on when he was allowed in there. Any other use of her bed would have been considered defilement. Other verses in the Law will help clarify the acceptable use of the woman's bed.


I Samuel 18

1 Sam 18:3-4 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. KJV


In this passage it speaks of an "immediate bond of love", their souls being "in unison," their souls being "knit". Genesis 2:7, as written in the original Hebrew, describes how God blew the spirit into the body of Adam that God had formed from earth, so that Adam became a living soul. This means that "soul", in the ancient Israelite times and in the Old Testament Hebrew, represents a combination of body and spirit. Thus the two men appear to have loved each other both physically and spiritually. I Samuel 18:3-4 also tell us that Jonathan and David made a covenant, and that, to seal the covenant, Jonathan took off all the things he was wearing and gave them to David. The things he took off tell us a lot about the covenant itself. He took off his sword and bow and gave them to David, signifying that he intended to protect David. But it went further than that. By taking off all his clothes, he signified a much deeper and more intense relationship. Had this not been the start of a physical, sexual relationship, Jonathan's actions would have been considered bizarre indeed, by the standards of their day, or ours.4


1 Sam 18:21 And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law a second time. ASV


1 Sam 18:21 And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain. KJV


Notice that "the one of" is in italics in the KJV. That means they are not found in the Hebrew text. In fact, they are not even hinted at in the Hebrew text. Adding them completely changed the meaning of the verse. Verse 21 proves that Jonathan and David's covenant was a marriage covenant, and that Saul recognized the marriage, since, beside Michal, David had no marriage covenant with any of Saul's other children. Although he was supposed to marry Saul's daughter Merab, that never happened. Therefore, the only two of Saul's children he had covenants with were Jonathan and Michal. Just as a point of information, Hebrew has no word for "son-in-law". The Hebrew word used in the verse is a verb which means "to be related by marriage". Since Saul used the verb in connection with David's impending marriage to Michal, it is clear that the relationship he referred to was indeed son-in-law.


Also notice that King Saul didn't draw any distinction between David's marriage to Jonathan and his impending marriage to Michal. Although Saul didn't approve of the marriage between the two men, 1 Sam 20:30, he still recognized it as a marriage, and not just two men living together.


I Samuel 20

I Samuel 20:30 "Then Saul's anger burned toward Jonathan, and he said to him, Thou son of the perversion of rebelliousness! Don't I know that thou has chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion (see note) and the confusion of thy mother's *****?" (see note below)


Confusion - The word confusion has a somewhat different meaning here than the one we usually use. Rather than meaning "being confused," it refers instead to being undone or frustrated in purpose. What Saul was saying was that by choosing David, Jonathan was a rebellious son who was confounding his own future, as well as the very reason that Saul and Jonathan's mother had conceived him, that is, to ascend to the throne of Israel when his father died. Saul expounded on this in verse 31, and then offered to "remedy" the situation by having David killed. Saul's annoyance with his son's choice had nothing to do with David's gender, but only reflected the fact that as long as David was alive, Jonathan would never be king of Israel.
***** There is no polite English word for the phrase King Saul used. He used a graphic and vulgar term for the female genitalia.


1 Sam 20:41
And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. KJV


Correct Hebrew translation:
I Samuel 20:41 "As soon as the boy was gone, David arose from the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times. They kissed each other, and wept together, until David experienced an erection." (Hebrew: "became large")3


II Samuel 1:26

I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. KJV


David expressed his love for the late Jonathan. Please understand that when David referred to the love of women, the only possible love he could be referring to was sexual love. It was considered highly improper for a man to have any type of platonic friendship with a woman. Men and women usually didn't even speak to each other in public. Even a husband and wife would not speak to each other in the street. (The Chassidic Jews still observe this custom.) Since David would not have had any platonic relationships with women, he could only have been referring to sexual interaction. This is further indication of the sexual nature of his relationship with Jonathan, since it would not make sense to compare a platonic relationship with a man to a sexual relationship with a woman. David clearly preferred the love of Jonathan. Nowhere in scripture will you find David expressing such love for a woman. Although he married more than once, and fathered children, he never expressed such love for any of his wives.


Not only is homosexuality not something to be cured, it is also not condemed in the bible, so the LIA camps have no grounds to even exist...



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I'm skeptical of the site because they don't post the original Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek along with it, but its not the first time things have been mistranslated or added onto for the sake of dogma, so I will forward your post.

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here you go, it's posted.

He does make a good, and hopefully truthful, arguement--its just the lack of sources for the original texts that makes me skeptical.

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Okay, here's another argument saying the same thing, except by a Rabbi (found this on the Fighting Homophobia Forum posted by rubin, and couldn't resist linking to it), so now there's two sources:
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=1&discussionID=380669&messages_per_page=16


Okay that link doesn't work--but the same Rabbi makes the same points here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html

peace & love,
Wappy



-- Edited by wappy at 16:55, 2005-06-23

-- Edited by wappy at 17:06, 2005-06-23

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Nat


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That was really interesting to read. Im going to go and talk with some family friends who are christian and have been studying the bible since they were bubs pretty much to see if they have anything else to add

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An excellent post!
I will copy it to Queers in Action and
yahoo group pissedgay

thanks

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